Welcome back to the Oathbringer reread, where we are just now teetering on the top of the roller coaster ride that is the climax of this novel. Emotions are riding high as our heroes believe that all is lost and the enemy’s forces will prevail. Without further ado, let’s jump right in, shall we?
Reminder: We’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread—if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
In this week’s reread we also discuss some very mild spoilers from Warbreaker and Mistborn in the Cosmere Connections section, so if you haven’t read them, perhaps give that section a pass.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Everyone
WHERE: Thaylen City
WHEN: 1174.2.8.1
Odium tries to convince Dalinar to give him his pain, thereby becoming Odium’s Champion. Szeth fights on the battlefield, protecting Lift as she continues trying to reclaim the King’s Drop—but he loses Nightblood’s sheath, and the sword begins to consume him. Lift places her hands against his head and tries to ease his burden. Jasnah approaches Renarin, intending to kill him, but at the last moment she loses her resolve and vows to help him instead, thereby proving that Renarin’s visions of the future aren’t infallible. Ash arrives to rescue Taln. In Shadesmar, Kaladin struggles to say the Fourth Ideal, only to fail. Navani is captured, but uses her fabrial to save herself and Queen Fen.
Beginnings
Title: The Weight of It All
Dalinar tried to stand, straight-backed and at attention, beneath the weight of it all.
A: This quotation is actually from Chapter 100, at a point when Dalinar has recovered all of his memories except the visit to the Nightwatcher. He’s in Vedenar, looking out over the damaged city, smelling the smoke and hearing the cries that take him back to Rathalas; Nergaoul, drawn to the Veden civil war, is calling to him. He’s trying so hard to fill his Leader of the Coalition role, while the combination of memories and responsibilities weigh on him. It’s a terribly fitting parallel to Odium pouring out memories on him in our current chapter, trying to bury him under his guilt. Unfortunately for Odium, he’s faced these memories once already, and accepted his guilt. Beautiful foreshadowing.
Heralds: Nalan (Nale), Just/Confident, Herald of Justice. Skybreakers. Role: Judge (x2)
Battah (Battar), Wise/Careful. Elsecallers. Role: Counsellor.
Palah (Paliah). Learned/Giving. Truthwatchers. Role: Scholar
A: Well, hmm. Everyone has a representative in the mix this week, so there’s that—Szeth for Nalan, Jasnah for Battar, and Renarin for Paliah. You could also make the argument that Dalinar and Jasnah are both dealing with issues of Justice, and also with the need for wisdom and caution. Navani’s trick with the fabrial is definitely a matter of being learned… and maybe giving too: giving pain! Lift is certainly giving—she risks being “eaten” by Nightblood in order to help Szeth. My favorite is probably Renarin, making the connection that Jasnah’s decision proves that the future is still malleable. I suspect there are more connections to be made, though.
Icon: Double Eye (indicating multiple POV characters)
Epigraph:
These Voidbringers know no songs. They cannot hear Roshar, and where they go, they bring Silence. They look soft, with no shell, but they are hard. They have but one heart, and it cannot ever live.
—From the Eila Stele
Stories & Songs
“We must follow one of them?” Turash asked. “A human?”
Venli’s breath caught. There had been no respect in that tone.
Odium smiled. “You will follow me, Turash, or I will reclaim that which gives you persistent life.”
L: Ooooh, hmm. The fact that Odium can take away whatever it is that causes their reincarnation is a good sign, right? That means that it can be taken away. Now if only our heroes could figure out how to do it!
A: That would be most excellent, wouldn’t it? As much as I don’t like Odium at all, it was salutary to see the arrogance of the Fused brought up short with this reminder. They’re so used to being super-powered, especially in this incarnation where there are so few Radiants. I wonder if Nightblood’s destruction of the thunderclast gave them pause, or if they actually registered what happened there.
Relationships & Romances
Suddenly they were young again. He was a trembling child, weeping on her shoulder for a father who didn’t seem to be able to feel love. Little Renarin, always so solemn. Always misunderstood, laughed at and condemned by people who said similar things about Jasnah behind her back. …
Jasnah fell to her knees, then pulled Renarin into an embrace. He broke down crying, like he had as a boy, burying his head in her shoulder.
L: MY. HEART.
A: I’m surprised and delighted by this all over again, every time I read it. The realization that Jasnah was a very present friend to Renarin when he was a child, and was apparently his protector and comforter, is just… such a contrast to what we often expect of her. Of course, every time I read it, I also want to know more about Jasnah’s childhood experiences, but that will have to wait.
Buy the Book
Rhythm of War
The part that always grabs me is when Renarin looks at her and nods. He not only accepts that she’s going to kill him, he thinks it would be better than living to see his father become Odium’s champion.
L: I also got the impression that he is so confused about whether or not he’s evil himself, that he thinks that it would be better if he were taken out of the picture. That must be a terrifying position to be in—to truly believe that you’re the bad guy, that you’ve been corrupted without any hope of redemption.
A: As we both mentioned in the opening paragraphs, the spectacular upshot of Jasnah’s decision not to kill him, even though he’s accepted it as his fate, is that he gets to see one of his visions fail completely. That revelation is pretty huge—for Renarin and the reader both.
L: And also probably gave him hope for his own redemption from corruption. If his visions can be wrong, then maybe there’s hope.
A: I fully agree with this. Renarin had always been “the different one” (to put it kindly, in some cases), and the fear that he’s not only different, but deeply wrong, has to have been devastating. Now there’s hope, again, and it is a beautiful thing.
Bruised & Broken
“Blame me, Dalinar. It wasn’t you! You saw red when you did those things! It was my fault. Accept that. You don’t have to hurt.”
Dalinar blinked, meeting Odium’s eyes.
“Let me have the pain, Dalinar,” Odium said. “Give it to me, and never feel guilty again.”
L: Oh, how tempting an offer this must be. I’m so glad that he didn’t offer this to Kaladin, because I’m pretty sure that Kal (in his current state) would have taken it without hesitation. In this moment, Dalinar is a stronger man by far than I think most of us could be.
A: It’s almost incomprehensible: the offer that someone else could have all of the blame for the actions you regret. Not forgiveness (which is what Dalinar knew he needed), nor absolution, but complete abdication of responsibility for any of it. Yes, it would be unbelievably tempting, which is what Odium is counting on. Make him feel all the pain, all the guilt, and then offer to take it all away. Who could possibly resist that?
L: A stronger person by far than I am, that’s for sure.
[Nightblood] screamed at him to destroy evil, even if evil was obviously a concept that the sword itself could not understand. Its vision was occluded like Szeth’s own. A metaphor.
A: Sometimes I find myself ambivalent about Szeth. On the one hand, he’s horror-stricken by all the death he’s dealt out; on the other hand, he did it himself, of his own free will, no matter who gave the orders. He is pitiable indeed, because he has no hope of forgiveness; his best hope is to follow someone wiser, but that’s not always a straightforward decision either.
L: I’m not sure about the free will part. If he was brought up believing completely that he had to follow those orders, that there is no choice, then breaking that social conditioning would be a Herculean task (one that we are seeing the forward steps of now). It’s hard for us to understand that mindset, not having been raised in such a society.
A: “Free will” is an intricate concept. I’m just using it in the sense that nothing was physically compelling him to obey those orders; the fact that he felt obligated to obey due to his cultural creed is the painful part.
Squires & Sidekicks
“But be warned, the queen at Kholinar tried this, and the power consumed her.”
L: Does this mean she’s dead, or simply a burned out husk somewhere? I’m very curious to see if she ever returns.
A: I’m pretty sure it means she’s dead. I don’t have proof, or a WoB confirmation, but I don’t honestly see how you could try controlling Yelig-nar, fail, and still survive.
Tight Butts and Coconuts
“By Kelek, storms, and Passions alike,” Kmakl said. “What is that?”
A: I just felt the need to include the Thaylen swears here. Quite the mixed bag of icons he’s got there!
L: I see this as the “If anyone up there is listening…” sort of swear. Gotta cover all your bases in a situation like this.
A: Heh. Reminds me of the altar to “The Unknown God” on Mars Hill—we’re pretty sure there’s something else out there, so we’re gonna make an altar for it just in case he’ll give us some credit for that!
Weighty Words
“I… I will…”
He thought of friends lost. Malop. Jaks. Beld and Pedin.
Say it, storm you!
“I…”
Rod and Mart. Bridgemen he’d failed. And before them, slaves he’d tried to save. Goshel. Nalma, caught in a trap like a beast.
L: It’s so beautiful (and heart-rending) that he remembers the names of all those he’s lost. I almost wonder, if Syl hadn’t chosen him as a Windrunner, he’d have been a candidate for an Edgedancer.
A: It’s a good thought, and quite valid. I need to note, too, that he’s not merely thinking of “friends he’s lost” like we think of having lost a parent or a dear friend to age or illness. He’s thinking of them as friends he, personally, failed—that he actively “lost” them by not adequately protecting them. He takes each loss as his own fault, whether that’s reasonable or not, which is why this is so brutally difficult for him.
L: “With great power comes great responsibility” indeed. Poor Kaladin.
“I… can’t,” Kaladin finally whispered, tears streaming down his cheeks. “I can’t lose him, but… oh, Almighty… I can’t save him.”
Kaladin bowed his head, sagging forward, trembling.
He couldn’t say those words.
He wasn’t strong enough.
L: It’s pretty clear that Kaladin knows the words that need to be said (even if we as the readers don’t, despite all our speculation). Whatever they are, they’re going to be powerful indeed.
A: Undeniable! A bit before this, he asked himself if he could say “these Words” and really mean them—which answers a question I had somewhere along the line: Could you say an Ideal for the sake of saving a situation, even though you really didn’t want to do them? Apparently not.
The most important step a man can take. It’s not the first one, is it?
It’s the next one. Always the next step, Dalinar.
L: Need any more be said on this beautiful line?
Cosmere Connections
The sword was growing frustrated. DESTROY, DESTROY, DESTROY! Black veins began to grow around Szeth’s hand, creeping toward his upper arm.
A: Nightblood is really, really scary when he gets loose, you know? Even Vasher was never able to stop this effect, at least not that we’ve seen. Szeth doesn’t stand a chance.
L: I guess that depends on what it would take to “control” Nightblood. Is it just Investiture, or does mental strength play into it as well? Vasher’s definitely got more Investiture than Szeth, that’s for sure.
A: We really don’t know what it would take, come to think of it. The sheath is, thus far, the only way we’ve ever seen this sword controlled. I wonder what would have happened if Susebron had drawn Nightblood—would that much Investiture have enabled him to control it, or would that just have given Nightblood more fuel?
She breathed life into him somehow, and the sword drank of it freely. Her eyes went wide as the black veins began to grow up her fingers and hands.
A: Aaaand this is where Nightblood just isn’t fun any longer. That whole thing about throwing him into the middle of the bad guys, and the worse they are the quicker they kill each other, while any good guys just get sick to their stomach? Yeah that was sorta fun, and the perky voice is great, but… when you start eating children, it’s time to draw the line.
L: Yeah, it’s an interesting dichotomy for sure between the funny cheerful voice we get most of the time and… this.
There, she swept gracefully to her feet and seized the sheath off Szeth’s back. … When Szeth turned to attack, she blocked the sword with its own sheath.
A: Szeth is shocked by this, because he doesn’t know anything about the sheath except that it seems to control the DESTROY attitude. This is not surprising; he knows nothing of the sword’s provenance. My question is, how does the Fused know about it? How did she know to steal the scabbard, and that it would block the sword? As far as we know, Nightblood was created long after the last Desolation.
L: Is it possible that Odium knows way more about the other planets than we give him credit for? Perhaps he’s been watching from the sidelines all this time. He does seem to have been the one to give the order to get the scabbard…
[Navani] flipped the switch on the painrial, drawing away the agony of the cut.
L: The way that she’s storing up her own pain to redirect towards others reminds me a lot of how the feruchemy works in Scadrial… Hmm.
A: Oh, that’s not actually how I read this, though you could be right. I never thought about the pain being a zero-sum quantity; more like an electric current that can go either direction—in or out of the fabrial. Huh. That’s a question I might need to examine more closely!
L: So you view it as less… storing and more redirecting in the moment? I definitely got the impression that the pain could be stored as long as the fabrial was powered by Stormlight.
A: I honestly don’t know. There’s definitely the possibility of storage, it’s just not something I’d considered before. Either way, I just have to point out that when she used the painrial to disable the soldier, she knew exactly what he was feeling, because she’d tested it on herself. That’s dedication to your craft, right there.
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
In the back of his mind, the Stormfather wept. …
The Stormfather’s weeping faded as Odium somehow shoved the spren away, separating them.
A: This freaks me out every time it happens; we’ve talked about it before. Even though Odium appears to Dalinar in a more or less human-sized form, he’s so vast he can casually shove the Stormfather himself off into silence.
L: Not only that, but he’s actively interfering with the bond that they share. That’s a terrifying concept.
Inside his fist, he somehow found a golden sphere. A solitary gloryspren.
A: We don’t know if the gloryspren was one of the ones that flitted through the temple in the Jasnah/Renarin scene. We don’t know how intelligent or empathetic gloryspren are. But this one, right here, right now, is pretty much exactly what Dalinar needed… and a teeny tiny foreshadowing of something truly glorious to come.
Quality Quotations
Screaming, as if they thirsted for death.
It was a drink that Szeth was all too good at serving.
L: Okay there, edgelord. (In all seriousness I know he has excellent reason for saying this, but it’s still kind of funny sometimes how emo he can be.)
“You cannot have my pain.”
It’s a good thing this chapter ended with that line, because it was looking pretty hopeless up until then. Join us next week for the stunning follow-on scene, as we work through Chapter 119.
Alice is trying to balance “ignore the media over-hype” with “be prepared for quarantine, because Washington is weird that way and her husband’s office is full of people who travel all the time.” (But the way soap and hand sanitizer are flying off the shelves, one has to wonder: Were these people not washing their hands before now? Just sayin’…)
Lyndsey is grieving the loss of a friend and an icon of the New England theater community. For many, he was the Kaladin to their Bridge Four, finding them in dark times and helping them to discover a family and a purpose. She likely would not be alive today were it not for him. If you’re so inclined, please raise a glass of your beverage of choice and join her in saying: “Merry meet, merry part, and merry meet again.”
Navani’s drawing of the painrial states “Touch the gems in the correct combination to release a shock from the front nodes that will incapacitate an attacker.” I’ve always assumed the shock was just something it could generate, not something it had to store and then release.
I’ve always wondered why Szeth couldn’t drop the blade when Vasher could (chapter 56):
Well, for once the promoters weren’t exaggerating.
Regarding the Painrial, I saw it as somewhere in all of that is a wrist-perched projectile-vomiting painspren.
The scene with Renarin is really good here and sad. It is the one scene which made me questioned why, oh why, Jasnah thinks so highly of Dalinar when she was there, holding crying Renarin pouring his heart out for a father who “did not love him”. How can Jasnah, after having witness this, after being the one to console Renarin, not hold a grudge against Dalinar? How can she like him as much as she does given she saw the consequences of his actions? How can she think so strongly of a man she knows once was such a heartless bastard?
Szeth’s lack of free will and agency is making me dislike him. Now he is freed of his need to obey the owner of his stone, he tosses his stones into another bag, swearing to obey the guidance of someone else… How about trying to decide for himself what is right and what is wrong? How about making the decisions? I can understand someone not wanting the burden of leadership, but really Szeth just gives away his entire decision making process to Dalinar hoping he chose well. I don’t like the fact Szeth comes across as a man who needs someone else to tell him how to think and what to do.
I an glad Dalinar did not give in to Odium even if part of me thinks it would have been such a plot twist had he turned really being Odium’s Champion. Still, I think Dalinar is getting a lot of leeway for his past… They had this discussion on the 17th Shardcast RoW’s predictions: how can Dalinar punish crimes in other people when he stands at the head of the Radiants? He HAS to let everyone go unpunished because if not, then he is being hypocritical and applying a double-standard, one for himself and one for everyone else. I wonder if more readers see how problematic this could turn out being.
Meaningless fact: About 25% of people do NOT wash their hands…
@1 Vasher has a LOT more experience with this particular effect. This might be the first time Sveth has felt the call to destroy evil so intensely
@3 I don’t believe the text indicates “did not love him” but instead “a father who didn’t seem to be able to feel love”. Given Jasnah and Renarin’s own atypical personalities I think she would be more forgiving of Dalinar’s own struggles. If anything the changes he has managed to make over the last 7 years would cause her to have deep respect for him, knowing where he started from.
Lots of awesome moments here.
First, I agree stopping the fused from possessing parsh will be a game changer in the war. Nightblood being the biggest all on his own.
Second, Jasnah helped raise Renarin and was very much a mother figure and confidant to him as we see in this scene. It must have deeply hurt Jasnah for Renarin to be keeping this from her, and must have deeply hurt Renarin to feel he had to keep it to himself while feeling like he was a monster. I think in some ways Renarin feels he is the cause of all this. That maybe by him seeing the future, it is making it possible for the enemy, and he cannot change it. Could be also why he willingly wanted to die. He said himself he tried to do good with Glys, but it kept going all wrong. I really feel for the guy. Which is why this moment and the moments that follow between Jasnah and Renarin are all the more beautiful. I agree that hope, that feeling that things can finally be different must have been the most wonderful feeling in the world to him.
Szeth is still learning to question. He began to question Nale. I think even as he follows Dalinar, he will question if any of the orders Dalinar gives him begins to contradict with what Szeth deep down knows to be. I think Szeth is definitely headed in the right direction. Bit by bit.
I believe it was mentioned in Lift’s novella (I have to check because I am going off of recollection), but you can mean the oaths in your heart, and they count, without having to say them. So I think that means that if you say them without meaning them, they will not work.
As to Navani’s fabrial, first I think it is awesome to see how fabrial tech is growing and cannot wait for Rhythm of War. Second I believe what we see there is the diminisher and amplifier natures of a fabrial that Navani mentions when she first puts the painrial on Adolin. It is feeding the spren the pain, to diminish it. Makes you wonder what she does to cause it to amplify?
We also see in these scenes why Jasnah reasoned the way she did (as I mentioned in prior chapters). Renarin is seeing the future, which is believed to be Odium’s power. He is obviously corrupted. She has suspected so since Renarin predicted the Everstorm. She has been researching, and trying to find out ever since, but we read later Renarin kept it from everyone.
Another sign I believe Dalinar loved Evi. That his thoughts of her are again “The woman who believed in him. He’d never deserved her”. Truly the most important step is the next one. People can claim to change, but it is keeping with it that is the true challenge. To take a simplistic representation, how many people take New Years Resolutions to lose weight? How many actually keep to their Resolution. The next step.
I defy anyone who claims they didn’t get chills reading this part. Impossible!
@5 Scath – I was actually wondering recently whether the Words have to be spoken. I was listening to WoR and the thought struck me when Syl came back to Kaladin and insisted that he had to say the Words. And them the Stormfather reluctantly accepted them. It made me think there’s an actual verbal component to it.
How do spren know where to show up? Are they just so prevalent in Shadesmar that they can just show up where ever their thing is happening? Are they just very fast at getting where they need to be? Is distance meaningless for showing up in the physical realm? Or do they somehow know where they will need to be and can get there early. There are many references to glory spren in this chapter and previous even though nothing should be drawing them yet. (Unless they are there for the enemy)
I don’t get how does blaming Odium makes you work for him? Odium: “Totally my fault your wife’s dead.” Dalinar: “Good point, let’s be buddies.” Like what? How does that work?
@6 Austin
So I think it is a bit confusing, and the jury is still out, but I found the scene I was referring to with Lift and I think it supports that the words do not have to be said. I will type the pertinent portions below, but to sum up, Wyndle tells Lift to say the words. She says she already said them in her heart. Shortly after Nale swings his sword at her, and she manifests Wynde for the first time to block the blade showing she reached the third oath. Then shortly after that she says the words of the third oath aloud. So that says to me she swore it before she spoke it, because of the Wyndleblade.
Arcanum Unbound page 662
“I don’t know what to do” Lift said
“Say the Words” Wyndle said from beside her
“I’ve said them, in my heart” But what good would they do?
Too few people listened to anything other than their own thoughts. But what good would listening do her here? All she could hear was the sound of the storm outside, lightning making the stones vibrate
I can’t defeat him. I’ve got to change him. Listen.
(skipping a small portion)
Darkness emerged into the storm, rising from the hole in the clifftop. He saw her, then stepped forward, hefting his Shardblade like an axe. He swung.
Lift screamed. She let go of Wyndle’s vines and raised both hands above herself. Wyndle sighed a long, soft sigh, melting away, transforming into a silvery length of metal. She met Darkness’s descending Blade with her own weapon.
(skipping another small portion)
“You think you can fight me, child?” he growled holding his Blade against her rod “I who have lived immortal lives? I who have slain demigods and survived Desolations? I am the Herald of Justice.”
“I will listen” Lift shouted “to those who have been ignored!”
@7 Simpol
Lower spren tend to hang around large gatherings of people, like cities and such because they have ready access to the things that attract them. Pain, joy, life, rot, glory, fear, etc.
@8 It’s said that glory spren are fairly rare, but in the next chapter their are a lot of them. You think their were that many just hanging around Thaylen city?
So the Ideals don’t need to be said out loud, do need to be meant, but don’t need to be understood (as evidence of book 1 where no body seems to understand the first ideal)
@@.-@: How is it any different? The end result is the same: younger Dalinar behaved like a heartless bastard towards his younger son. For some reasons, Jasnah does not think he was a heartless bastard for behaving the way he did and willingly forgives him for it.
As a reader, I find the rational behind it is not well-explained and I do wonder if it has anything to do with Brandon’s reluctance to write inter-character conflict in between his protagonists. I noticed how the protagonists all love each other, all think highly of each other, and never disagree with each other or if they do not very harshly… I find there is definitely a lack of depth here I am hoping Brandon will work on improving in RoW.
@9 I think there is some physical component/overlay between shadesmar and the physical realm that needs to be obeyed and that in general you would find most types of spren near a city anyway. But in this case – as to your point that they are generally rare – I believe there is a point in the shadesmar trip where the company sees a flock of glory spren flying toward Thaylen city. This implies to me that they were gathering there ahead of time. Now, whether that is due to them sensing the impending battle and knowing some group would gain great glory or whether they were somehow called to Dalinar, I don’t know.
@9 Simpol
Good points. I think it is because Elhokar noted glory spren tend to hang around Dalinar. So over time, Dalinar’s burgeoning bond attracted glory spren. They then tend to hang out around him, but not manifest in the physical realm unless something “glorious” is being done. Then Dalinar certainly does something glorious and a whole lot show up lol.
I think that is a pretty good gist of my theory, except for the understand part. The first oath can mean different things to different people. So can subsequent oaths. So long as the individual understands their own interpretation, i think that counts.
Now, my general comment on this chapter:
I know many are aware that Brandon belongs to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and while I think it is folly to try and read into all his authorial decisions or “big themes” being tied to those beliefs, because I think most of the time he’s just writing to tell interesting stories and explore ideas and he brings in themes and ideas from all over – as evidenced by the discussion last week about eastern philosophy and Ruin vs Preservation vs Creation, etc and spren as a whole and all sorts of stuff. Anyway, that being said, I couldn’t help but see one of my favorite verses from the Book of Mormon being echoed in the “next step” line of Dalinar. The verses says “And now.. after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path,” (the first step) “I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay…Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ… and endure to the end…” (2 Nephi 31:19-20). I love this idea of the importance of staying the course, of the next step being just as important as the first. With the Dalinar story, I feel that it also implies that if we’re going the wrong way the next step can be the one that turns us around, and I think there is a beauty there.
@@@@@9 again, I think the idea of intent is very important to the oaths. I do think they need to understand the oaths – even the first – to some degree for it to count. I feel like you also see all of them ruminating on at least one of the stanzas as they say it. That being said, I think their understanding of the oath grows each time, which is normal. Anything rich in meaning of symbolism has multiple layers or ways to understand it. (It’s like an onion; it smells and makes people cry.) Anyway, that’s how I’m reading it.
@@@@@ whoever can answer, what’s Nightblood’s sheath made of? I feel like aluminum makes sense Cosmerically, but I feel like I recall it being silver. Anyone know for sure?
Dalinar created that Gloryspren. Nobody else sees it? It’s a Splinter of Honor and Cultivation, after all, and Dalinar has bonded the Stormfather and received a pruning (and then a regrafting) by Cultivation herself.
Dalinar himself starts manifesting as Unity before speaking his Third Oath. This chapter, in fact.
Jasnah thinks about how most threats to a dynasty come from within. It’s a callback to when she considered assassinating Aesudan. She demurs both times. The first time led to disaster. We’ll see how the second goes.
Odium swats away gloryspen. Sylphrena did that (to Kaladin) earlier in the book. More ketek-like repetition, there.
I’ve assumed the Painrial stores up Pain and then releases it later on. In a way that’s struck me as working along very similar principles to Feruchemy.
Y’know, now that I’m thinking about it, I bet you could use Fabrials to replicate a lot of Feruchemical effects. Like using a Heatrial to simulate Feruchemical Brass, or maybe trap a creationspren to mimic Feruchemical Copper.
Really Fabrials are a super open-ended system that could be used to mimic a lot of things. And its a field of research that’s been taking off in recent decades and is now free from the dead-end of trying to study Shardblades. Exciting stuff, that.
Regarding Nightblood and the sheath, we know a few things. WoB states its made of Aluminium, which we know is able to neutralize and absorb most forms of investiture. But WoB also states Odium is quite aware of Nightblood, and its sheath. Thus the most likely thing is the fused was given an order from Odium like the one that took the Kings Drop.
Yea, these chapters really re-contextualized what we have been seeing from Renarin until now. Despite my great sympathy towards him, I remember being somewhat annoyed with him for being so tentative about being a Radiant and afraid of using his powers, but of course he must have been living in terror of being an abonimation this whole time! And, frankly, he can’t know whether Glys is betraying the lot of them. But at least his own reaction told Jasnah that he wasn’t a willing collaborator of Odium and gave her a reason to stay her hand.
I find the glimpse into Jasnah and Renarin’s closeness in the past to be deeply intriguing – sadly, Sanderson is most likely saving more details for the books where those 2 will have flashbacks, so it will be years before we see much more. Jasnah’s pursuit of knowledge about the Desolations and her mostly being absent from the Shattered Plains seem to have put distance between the cousins after Gavilar’s death and until now, though. Here is to seeing more of their interactions, even through the PoVs of others.
Gepeto @3: but would Jasnah herself know what a good father should be like? I mean, she loved and admired Gavilar, who didn’t seem close to or involved in the upbringing of either of his children. It was easy to rationalise Dalinar staying away from Kholinar with his duty to the kingdom, while for a frail child like Renarin it would have been obviously too dangerous to travel. And Dalinar, at least, started to improve in his attitude towards Renarin starting with the small bottle incident and became a good parent after Gavilar’s death. As I said previously, she probably considered Dalinar’s torment over Rathalas and Evie’s death as marks of his essential goodness too.
If Odium/the Fused are aware of the properties of aluminium against shardblades, does it mean that we’ll see aluminium-coated armor/weapons on the battlefield once the numbers of Radiants grow and the Soulcasting Fused appear in sufficient numbers? Was something like that used previously? I don’t remember any hint of it in Dalinar’s visions…
Vasher, of course, would have known to throw Nightblood _before_ it latched on so strongly that it became impossible. OTOH, I am a bit worried if a person thoroughly hollowed-out by Odium and therefore feeling no guilt and being generally emotionally deadenedn would be susceptible to Nightblood’s influence. I mean, it can’t really distinguish good people from bad – just those who are feeling guilty or greedy or otherwise attracted to a fine-looking black sword from those who aren’t.
Simpol @7:
I suspect that the gloryspren “knew” to gather there at that time through Spiritual Realm. Spren do seem to have a limited form of precognition.
P.S. I have also wondered if painrial stores pain and worried about the state of Navani’s health, should that be the case. Because it seemed amply charged.
@14 That’s a good option I hadn’t considered. Spren not only being attracted to the things they like but also being birthed from it.
@17 and others,
“I suspect that the gloryspren “knew” to gather there at that time through Spiritual Realm. Spren do seem to have a limited form of precognition.”
The same way the Windspren were attracted to Kaladin in Shadesmar when he was close to saying the 4th ideal.
How are we stopping here again!!! Finishing this chapter by itself left me wound so tight I’d snap at someone if I wasn’t alone here lol. It’s so dark and gloomy where everyone is standing. Well, except maybe for Renarin and Jasnah. Though still some uncertainty about what Renarin actually is, at least he will stick around long enough to find out. It is so great to see Jasnah having a heart. I know she has one, but she uses her head so much more it’s almost a surprise for everyone including herself when she uses it. And the fact that Renarin’s visions can be wrong (and therefore Odium doesn’t see the future perfectly) is a relief. The first hint that maybe Dalinar doesn’t need saving…
Poor Kaladin, I want him to say the words. And be able to mean them. And save the day. But he can’t. And it’s hard. But a hug from a life-sized Syl has to feel nice.
Dalinar reliving all those memories so quickly… he is STRONG now, after his pruning and regrowth. There is no way he could have made it through ready to take another step without everything he’d been through. I love how he is the poster child of being able to grow past your former self and into someone so much better, by accepting responsibility for his actions. (Though I might still hate Moash even if he does this…)
Can’t wait for next week!! Will they live? Will they all die? It’s a good thing this isn’t my first read!
@15 Gilphon
Although I still disagree that the painrial is storing the pain, I do whole heartily agree it is exciting to read about the innovations they are coming up with. Can’t wait!
@17 Isilel
I agree I would love to see more of Jasnah and Renarin together. Waiting close to 12 to 15 (probably more) years for Jasnah’s flashbacks is truly going to be a test of patience.
As I said above, even though I disagree and don’t think painrials store the pain, if what you say is correct, that would be a very compelling and heartbreaking realization regarding Navani’s health. Good theory.
L: I see this as the “If anyone up there is listening…” sort of swear. Gotta cover all your bases in a situation like this.
This reminded me of THIS.
@22 – Is it the Mummy? It’s the Mummy.
Alice. I also think that the title of Chapter 118 refers to the weight Kaladin has put on his psyche. He feels that only he can save Dalinar. Failing Dalinar would be just another in a long-line of failures (Tien, Elhokar, the Singers he met in the beginning of OB, the Wall Guard, those young soldiers like Tien who he could not protect, the other members of his platoon that were killed by Amaram or Helaran) (To be clear, I, AndrewHB, am not saying that all these deaths were Kaladin’s fault; I am saying that this is what Kaladin believes). Accordingly, the title (The Weight of it All) can equally apply to Kaladin.
To learn of how Jasnah was there for Renarin when Renarin was younger, it a side of Jasnah that we the readers rarely see so far. I think the one other example was Jasnah’s reaction when she thought that Shallan had tried to kill herself in WoK. I feel that even within her own family, Renarin is one of the few who saw this side of Jasnah. Given how Navani described Jasnah-as-child to Shallan, I doubt Navani saw this side of Jasnah. This side of her will serve her well as queen, even if nobody but her closest confidants and/or family see this side.
Dalinar’s insistence of accepting responsibility is the complete opposite of Moash. He blames everybody but himself for what happened in his life. For that matter, Teft acceptance of his addictions is akin to what Dalinar did (although probably at a lesser degree of inner intensity).
I think acceptance of one’s own actions is a key concept that runs through SA. It seems those on Team Honor are able to accept such weight (a tie-in to the Chapter title) and those on team Odium are not. It is not until Szeth realizes/accepts that he was responsible for his actions and could not get away with the excuse that he was just following orders, that Szeth believes is ready for the next step in his KR journey. I wonder if Odium’s followers who give him their pain acts as a sort of power for Odium. Similar to how Stormlight infuses and powers a KR.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Man this chapter.
The way Sanderson structured the POV shifts is such genius.
Having Kaladin fail to say the words as the third-last shift is this awesome subversion of expectations. In the previous two books, Kaladin has “levelled up” right when the situation is bleakest, and so at this point, you expect him to do it again (even though in the back of my mind I was thinking “really, Kaladin is saviour for the third straight time?”). When he can’t, you think everything is really screwed.
In the second last POV shift, Jasnah prepares to kill Renarin and doesn’t. Its a wonderful affirmation of their relationship, but as noted above, more importantly its a stunning reveal that future-sight can be wrong. So, could it mean that Dalinar doesn’t…?
We get to the last shift, and Dalinar doesn’t, indeed.
Its emotional whiplash, and the fact that it all happens inside two pages and probably a couple of minutes of reading is just so dizzying and spectacular.
On a side note, I have a feeling that when Kaladin says the Fourth Ideal, its going to be another subversion where he does level up, but this time it still won’t be enough.
Gepeto @3 asked “how can Dalinar punish crimes in other people when he stands at the head of the Radiants? He HAS to let everyone go unpunished because if not, then he is being hypocritical and applying a double-standard, one for himself and one for everyone else. I wonder if more readers see how problematic this could turn out being.”
Your point is is a leading question. It presupposes that Dalinar has not gone unpunished. You and I disagree on this issue. As we have discussed in prior comments, I believe Dalinar has been punished. I see his suffering, pain and anguish as (both when he tried to find escape in alcohol and when he was forced to relive his memories when these memories regrew) sufficient punishment. I will not try to get you to switch your position. You have previously (and I might add, eloquently) explained your position. My point is just be aware that there are some fans (me, for example) who believe Dalinar has been punished.
Austin @6. I got chills the first time I read that line.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
The bit with Navani reversing the painrial reminded me of an episode of Babylon 5. This woman found an alien device that could transfer life energy from one being to another, and she was using it to heal people who couldn’t afford proper medical treatment. The reason she was so willing to expend her own life energy is that she was terminally ill anyway. When a violent criminal took her daughter hostage and forced her to use it on his injuries, she reversed the polarity and drained his life energy–which had the side effect of healing her.
Anyone else keen for next week?
In other news. People that break the law and show remorse can usually expect a somewhat reduced sentence or leniency (which I think is reasonable). However, remorse by itself is not enough. Rapists, murderers etc don’t get to avoid additional punishment because it caused them trauma and they feel bad about it. Why does Dalinar? Is it the duration of his remorse? The fact that he abandoned his sons when they had already lost their mother that makes him avoid additional punishment?
There is also no (or I may be forgetting) indication that he feels remorse for the rift as a whole, it is only in how it affected his life through Evi. No care given to the thousands of people killed, the widows and orphans made. How is this a good person if he only shows remorse for his actions when they directly affect him?
Happy to be wrong on this as I haven’t read the books in a while, but from memory the reason he was traumatised by the rift is because he killed one single person, his wife.
If this is the case and he only feels remorse and guilt due to that specific consequence of his actions, how has he been punished for his actions as a whole? How has he been punished for murdering thousands?
If I drop a bomb on a city, then find out my wife was there and ONLY care about that fact. What does that say about me? Why does it not say the same for Dalinar?
Again, happy to be very wrong here if Dalinar did express grief and remorse for the thousands of innocents, but if it is just Evi.. Enough said.
What? Aesudan tried to control Yelig-nar, not Nergaol. Now Amaram is about to try the same, though Odium is facilitating the process this time.
I’ve mostly been less annoyed by Szeth’s continued existence than I was at the end of WoR, as he does interesting things instead of the unhappy slaughter-fests we’d mostly seen him doing. But now he’s back to slaughtering, and with Nightblood, and the fact that he’s killing soldiers of evilness doesn’t make it more fun to watch.
Except that Lift is there, forever the healer, forever the light in all darknesses of the world and the heart. She’s long been my sustaining hero. Seriously. I’ve had many times of despair when I cling to her words: “We gotta remember. Storm might be coming, but people still need to eat. The world ends tomorrow, but the day after that, people are going to ask what’s for breakfast. That’s your job.” Even in cataclysms, we need to take care of ourselves and each other, meeting the needs of the now and continuing to believe we’ll be there in the future.
@22…exactly the thing that popped into my head as well when I read Lindsay’s comment.
People are continuing to think in terms of “retributive justice” (to use the term from social psychology. Brandon doesn’t buy into that, as far as I can tell. He’s more about forgiveness. That’s what Dalinar asked for, after all–not justice, but forgiveness. He got it, from at least one victim. Note that Szeth is still being tormented by the spectral voices of his victims, and will start RoW in jail for his crimes.
@26: You and I indeed had this discussion and we both have different views. My perspective, however, is, as illustrated by @28, not everyone will readily believe Dalinar has gone through sufficient retribution to atone for his crimes. In a realistic world filled with realistic people, there would be people like you, who think it is sufficient, who believes Dalinar doing good right is enough, but there would also be people like me and SayWot who would think crimes need punishing even if the aggressor is repentant.
My main beef with this narrative is, it appears, Brandon, has completely ignored the existence of people such as myself or SayWot. He has written a narrative where all the characters agree with you and others, who agree there should be no punishment for Dalinar, who believe his drunken years are enough. He forgot to introduce the people who would disagree with those stakes and their absence is precisely what makes me chafe at the narrative.
That’s the issue… If SA were meant to depict a realistic tapestry of mankind inside a fantasy world, which we are all going to agree is Brandon’s aim since he tries very hard to paint his characters in a realistic manner with realistic issues, then it would have people who carry on a different ideology. There would be people to think what Dalinar did is totally, totally wrong and it means he shouldn’t be leading the world. There would be people to think Dalinar cannot dispense judgment nor punishment to criminals because he agreed to skip himself which would only encourage other people to misbehave, then plead mercy to Dalinar who will give it to them without asking because of his history.
Even if the narrative would ultimately not follow those people nor give in to their opinions, those opinions should exist inside SA because they are realistic and in a realistic world, some people would think it. As we can see here.
@28: I agree. Dalinar feeling remorse has never been enough for me especially since he mistreated his sons for years because he was too wrapped up in his “pain” to look at them. He ran away from consequences in alcohol and, once again, made everything be about him when *him*.
I also agree had Evi not died, Dalinar would have probably not felt remorse nor plunged down. It was the fact his bestiality caused the death of his wife which broke him, not the thousands of other people he killed. Hers was the only forgiveness he ever wanted. The other people? The narrative forgot they ever existed.
@31: The problem is no matter what Brandon’s personal philosophy is, in a realistic world, there would be people who’d disagree with him. A world where everyone believes the same as Brandon is not realistic. In fact, a world where everyone believes exactly the same is not realistic.
This is why, even if Brandon does not want to enforce retributive justice, he should, at the very least, introduce characters who would push for it. Why? Because it would be more realistic and seeing other opinions do exist in SA would really make the story come to life better. The whole “Dalinar gets forgiveness because he asked for it and everyone who asks for it should be getting it no matter what they do” is incredibly jarring. As a reader, I feel it needs to be offset by characters carrying on an opposite opinion who aren’t villains or dislikable antagonist.
This is why I have been rooting for members of Dalinar’s family to stop worshipping him and to start judging him. Because right now, it doesn’t feel realistic, to me, no one would.
@28 First, he is haunted by all the people he killed, well, the women and children. During his resulting years of brokenness he hears thousands of voices – Evi’s just always rises to the top as the most accusatory.
Second, @Gepeto, you have to realize that while this would be a war crime on Earth (and that only for the last 100 years or so) Roshar does not – as far as we either know or have even been implied – have any sort of understanding of war crimes. There is no legal consequence for what Dalinar did. So can he punish others for their crimes while being “unpunished”? Yes, because there is no crime to punish him for. Again, the Alethi knew that the Rift was burned. There was no push back. They didn’t care. At least, not in the way that we in modern times do. I’m not saying that’s right. I’m just saying that’s how this world/culture has been constructed. Now, with the publishing of Oathbringer in-world I expect there to be some consequences as (although mostly centered around Evi as that was the most “dishonorable” part in the Alethi view) the fullness comes out and Dalinar himself condemns his actions and invites judgement. In the sections we got he describes himself as a monster and has the line about if “even he” can change, etc.
I’m not sure that Dalinar actually committed any crimes to be punished for. The reason they kept it quiet was more that it was bad PR than anything. They are ultimately conquerors and not beholden to the laws, they set the laws.
@24 AndrewHB
Interesting point regarding Kaladin also feeling the weight. I like it
I agree regarding Jasnah. She was distraught over the idea that Shallan attempted suicide, and waited close by at any sign.
I do agree, for myself the greatest difference between Dalinar and Moash is Dalinar taking responsibility. We do have to remember for all of Way of Kings and some of Words of Radiance, everyone, even those that spent time with young Dalinar, missed young Dalinar. They wanted him to go back to the way he was. That says a lot about the culture. That Sadees, who committed as many if not more atrocities than Dalinar is held as an example to be lauded and emulated in Alethkar, meanwhile other nations see him as a monster.
I agree about Szeth as well, and that is an interesting thought. That by taking his followers pain, that it empowers Odium some how. Hmmmm. My gut says no, but I got nothing concrete to back it up, and it is an interesting theory. I wish you luck!
@26 AndrewHB
I think further is the goal Sanderson is trying to have in telling the stormlight archive. People with mental and emotional problems can still be heroes. They can work through their past and grow, even as those aspects of them never go away. That by dealing and accepting these parts of themselves, it shows how strong they can be. Typically in media such things are seen in a negative light. Sanderson wanted to subvert that. So sure there can be people that think differently (and we do see that with the other nations), but that is not meant to be the focus on these books. To me it is meant to be acceptance of responsibility, and triumph over personal pain. So I whole heartily agree with you. Dalinar has been punished, and ever takes the next step to be the better man.
@27 Nina
Interesting parallel
FYI, this doesn’t show as the next entry to 117 (and previous to 118 is not 117 either) — not tagged right maybe?
@28 SayWot
Dalinar was sickened by all the death prior to finding out Evi was in there.
Nina @27:
That was exactly what I have been thinking about! Except that reversing polarities on the painrial wouldn’t cure the underlying condition. I do hope that it is not how it functions, but I can’t help but worry.
AeronaGreenjoy @29:
With you about Szeth. I warmed up to the fact of his survival in the sense that I don’t hate it with a passion anymore, but IMHO letting him die would have still been the better choice. Somebody else could have given us all the intriguing insights into the Skybreakers just as well – possible even Nale himself. I now hope that Szeth dies for good in the 5th book. And it seems like Lift and Nightblood may be at the start of a beautiful friendship.
Something else occured to me about Lift and her unique Investiture-production – in this scene we see that she can give her Investiture to other people, so it must be unkeyed. Does it also mean that she can transfer it to gems and that it can substitute for stormlight? So that Lift and an “all-you-can-eat” buffet can help them overcome stormlight scarcity problems during the Weeping?
Gepeto:
Queen Fen and the Azish did call Dalinar on his past and doubted his fitness to lead the anti-Odium coalition. But they are more or less stuck with him as the only Bondsmith so far and Honor’s heir via the Stormfather. Alethi (and also Vedens?) greatly admire the Sunmaker, who was considerably worse, so their acceptance is entirely logical.
@32, Gepeto: “The problem is no matter what Brandon’s personal philosophy is, in a realistic world, there would be people who’d disagree with him.”
I mostly agree with you on that. My only slight divergence is that I don’t think this is being ignored, or will be. As mentioned by others, it’s only the Alethi (whose culture by and large encourages using horrific atrocities to accomplish one’s goals) who have no problem with the Blackthorn. Others, even other Vorin cultures, need lots of personal exposure to the new, renovated Dalinar to accept that he is no longer the violence-torrent of selfishness he once was.
The Alethi seem to have a lot in common with, say, the Vikings, Romans, or Mongols. Killing and the threat of killing are just what they do. It would never occur to Egil Skallagrimsson (the Icelandic viking) to worry about how many Norwegians loyal to his enemy Eirik Bloodaxe he killed. (Egil also killed and looted Saxons, Frisians, fellow Icelanders ….) After all the killing, Egil died as a respected senior advisor to the Earl of Orkney, and was a famous skald (poet). That culture just didn’t consider violent aggrandizement bad.
Re: speaking oaths out loud vs in your heart
I think there are a couple of pieces to this. First, it might depend on the type of spren/radiant involved. For instance, with Syl say it Kaladin needed to say the words, part of the reason was so the Stormfather could hear and accept them. In Lift’s case, she has been touched by Cultivation in the past, so her mental commitment to the words may be enough. Second, I’ve found that speaking oaths out loud actually does have it’s own power. I’ve asked several friends whether there is a difference between being married officially vs living with that person for several years. Universally, the answer is that it is different having gone through the ceremony and said the oaths/vows.
Re: painrial
I don’t think it is storing pain in a way similar to feruchemy. Since fabrials use charged gems/trapped spren, the setting that removes pain would be tied to one type of spree, while the one that causes pain would invoke another (painspren and comfortspren?).
Gepeto @@@@@ several, re: Jasnah and Dalinar – Several arguments have already been made, the most powerful of which (to me) is that Jasnah doesn’t exactly have the best examples of fatherhood to look to. Her own experience wasn’t exactly stellar. Beyond that, though, she knows Dalinar as a whole person, not solely as a bad father to Renarin. Seeing one negative effect, or even multiple negatives, simply doesn’t outweigh all the things she likes and respects about him. It’s possible to have a deep respect for someone while still seeing their faults.
Andrew @@@@@24 – I agree that the title applies well to Kaladin. I could make similar arguments regarding Renarin, Jasnah, and Szeth, at the least. The problem was that I forgot to actually look at the title until I was in the process of uploading, and realized at the last second that I hadn’t quoted the source text. When I found it, I was pretty blown away by the connection, and I just didn’t have/take the time to explore other applications. Thanks for pointing that out, though; I love seeing how the titles tie things together in another way.
Re: Dalinar and forgiveness vs. punishment, most of the arguments have already been made. I’ll just say that I agree with the point that in Alethi culture, might makes right, and (horribly, to us) Dalinar didn’t leave anyone alive to bear resentment over Rathalas. To the rest of the country, it was a chilling reminder that you don’t want the Blackthorn sent to deal with you; they don’t see it as a war crime. As someone else noted, “war crime” is not really in their vocabulary.
To the rest of the world, he was killing his own people, so they aren’t necessarily bothered by it as a crime needing punishment. While they initially don’t trust him, that’s more because he has a fearsome reputation, and they deeply fear Alethi conquest. History has shown that Alethi aggression is not healthy for those on the receiving end. So yes, they fear him, but they have no particular interest in his battles or behavior against his own people. They just want to make sure he won’t do it to them.
The other thing you simply can’t leave out is that, feared or respected, everyone knows he’s a great general, and they’re facing a vast common enemy. Taravangian’s seeds of discord came at just the right time to disrupt the shaky coalition, but they still know they need a leader to have any hope of survival. When you have on hand someone who is not only a great general, but also a Bondsmith who has been showing you miraculous things, no one is going to speak up and insist that he should be in jail instead.
Are there people somewhere on Roshar who don’t think Dalinar deserves to be forgiven? Of course there are. But they aren’t the ones we’re hearing from right now.
AeronaGreenjoy @29 – ugh. I always mess up Yelig-nar. I thought I had fixed that, but obviously not. Thanks for the catch – I corrected it now.
Want a real world example of teaming up with someone like Dalinar? In WWII we teamed up with Stalin against the axis powers. And any one who knows anything about Stalin will tell you he was paranoid and genocidal in his own right. But the thing about war is “war makes strange bedfellows”
@38: I know, this is the go-to answer each this topic comes back: there were Fen and the Azish to stand-in as characters who do not have to readily trust Dalinar. While I do appreciate the inclusion of Fen, while I enjoy her character and will be keen to read more of her, I just did not find her perspective and the Azish were strong enough or present enough to counter-balanced the insane amount of love/trust Dalinar received from everyone else.
@39: I understand this, but it makes it harder for me to emotionally feel supportive of the character.
@41: Alice, my personal problem is I don’t think I could ever respect someone who behaves the way Dalinar did with his kids. It wouldn’t matter if this person had single-handily invented the cure to the covid19, I would never respect the man who ignores the existence of one of his sons and thinks of the other as a tool to use in his wars. That’s my main issue. Granted, Jasnah is not me and it is possible she can respect Dalinar despite his behaviors, but this currently stands in as one of the narrative elements which are making Dalinar less sympathetic then he should be, to my eyes.
I just can’t like someone who gets away with so much love and respect despite his behavior. The world is painted with people who don’t get much love nor respect despite not being undeserving of either and yet there are people like Dalinar who get it without deserving it. I find it irritating and I know I am not the only one.
I’d love to hear from the people who do not think Dalinar deserves being forgiven because I do need this perspective right now. Tal’Kamar in the Licanius is a great example of a man no one wants to forgive, but everyone agrees they need his help if they are to survive. The main difference in between Tal’Kamar and Dalinar is Tal’Kamar faces opposition, he faces people who judge him, who dislike him, who fear him: his past actions are not forgiven, ignored or tossed away even if they happened a long time ago and he has changed now.
Dalinar gets forgiven by everyone who matters. He has this great moment where the “owns up to his pain and takes responsibility” but why should I care, as a reader, if his actions were to be inconsequential anyway? All I can think of is how Dalinar waited for so long to own up to himself, by the time he does it, it is meaningless because no one cares what he did anymore. No one cares about the Rift or Evi. Just no one.
In other words, I find the fact there is no one to harshly judge Dalinar nor to disagree with him takes away from his growth.
@43: But I am pretty sure there were people who disagreed with the decision.
I think I just realized what the problem is. We’ve been asking the wrong questions. A theme of the seris is “do better” so the question we should be asking is what characters are doing better then they were before what characters aren’t, and what changes do the other characters who aren’t doing better need to make in order to improve.
That scene with Jasnah and Renarin was one of my favorites ever and just cemented my love for Jasnah :)
“The most important step a man can take. It’s not the first one, is it?
It’s the next one. Always the next step, Dalinar.”
Ah, I love it – I was reading this book right around the time Last Jedi came out (which also made me very emotional) and I felt like some of the themes (especially around failure) really dovetailed so nicely.
Also, I kept thinking of this line during the song “The Next Right Thing” in Frozen II :)
@38 I like the idea of Lift’s investiture being unkeyed. But, another option in this case is that she was able to transfer it only because she was trying to “heal” Szeth with Regrowth and that simply got siphoned into Nightblood. But it would be interesting if she had investiture separated from Identity.
I think Szeth was exercising his free will the entire time. In his head I would think he was executing his free will to obey the laws even when they caused him personal pain and suffering. The fact that his belief’s were wrong just makes it tough. But he did make an “admirable” choice in sticking to his beliefs
It occurs to me: Dalinar just rejected Odium’s influence, with tremendous effort.
As far as we know, not one person in Amaram’s army managed to resist the Thrill. Not one.
Is Dalinar extraordinary, or did the two Highprinces Sadeas really recruit a universally-easily-controlled gang of happy killers?
@@@@@ 49. I’m not sure how many of Amaram’s army have spoken the first ideal, the second ideal of the bondsmiths, are bonded to the Stormfather or have had the benefit of pruning by Cultivation…
I think that its established that in the cosmere Investiture can protect the individual invested you from other forms of investiture. (I guess its debatable whether or not the thrill is a form of direct or even indirect investiture).
Maybe Dalinar is amazing enough; though its worth noting that he was more susceptible then anyone to the thrill in his youth; hence Odium picking him as his champion.
@44
everyone who matters? For example? Nobody knows yet, what he has done to Evi and what really happened at the rift, thats all content of the next book (that you, i assume, havent read anything of)
@39 Carl
I would further expand that built into their entire religion (Vorinism), fighting is the highest calling. To die fighting is the best way to go. Fighting is worship to the Almighty, and proof you will be a great warrior to help reclaim the Traquiline Halls. Very much like viking and celtic lore. Valkyries and The Morrigan choosers of the slain. Those that died fighting well and taking as many with them as they can, to be carried off to Vahalla and the Otherworld. Cuchulain was a Celtic hero who was lauded for fighting till he was gutted, then using his own intestines to tie himself up to a tree so he could keep fighting. His foes had to wait till a raven (Morrigan) landed on his shoulder as proof he finally died.
@40 RogerPavelle
Personally I am still leaning towards the oaths have to be meant, not necesarily spoken, but it could very well vary from order to order. Lightweavers speak truths after all which is different than everyone else.
I agree regarding the panrial. I think it is a function of the spren employed.
@41 Wetlandernw
I agree with a lot of what you are saying. To use another real world analogue in Mussolini. By all counts he was a brutal dictator, but there were for a long time elderly from the era that still miss his rule citing “the trains always ran on time”.
@43 BenW
I would further add you can be sure members of his administration and the military he led certainly idolized and extolled him. He couldn’t have been in power if there weren’t people happy to follow, do what he says, and believe in what he represented.
@45 BenW
That is an excellent point and I like the idea to view the novels in that manner.
@47 whitespine
I agree. I think Lift was healing Szeth with her metabolized stormlight, and nightblood being extra hungry and able to eat any investiture, followed it to the source. i.e. her.
@49 Carl
I have been re-reading Way of Kings in preparation for Rhythm of War, and I came across this quote:
Way of Kings page 476
In Sadeas’s undisciplined, barely regulated camp, nobody would blink if Kaladin – a shash branded slave – were strung up on some nebulous charge. They could leave him for the highstorm, washing their hands of his death, claiming that the Stormfather had chosen his fate
So it does look like the camp was cultivated for a certain type of soldier.
@50 Zero G
I think it has to do with Dalinar’s inner strength, because he did feel the Thrill, and Odium made sure to focus a large amount of it directly at Dalinar to make him break. It is because of Dalinar’s will, the person inside, and his growth (to me) that he was able to overcome it.
@51 Havi
I think it also comes up that “everyone who matters” is rather subjective in this case.
@51: Fair point.
I will admit I am not holding out my breath for the narrative to tackle down Dalinar’s downfall once the truth about his past becomes known. It seems to me the narrative has moved away from those events and OB has highlighted how there was no one alive who would care except perhaps Dalinar’s sons, but they both love their father so much, it is hard to conceive they would hold it against him. Hence, I might have been jumping ahead too quickly, so I will rephrase my thoughts: I do not personally believe there will be anyone who matters who’ll care about Dalinar having burned the Rift thus making his “acceptance of his past” a purely inner narrative, which is great, but as a reader, I personally found it is missing the point it actually had external consequences. It also makes me feel Dalinar takes ownership of his actions only once they matter not and they cannot influence his future which was probably not intended, on his part, but that’s how I ended up reading it.
By “anyone who matters” I meant characters of importance who’s opinion have an impact on the narrative. I meant characters who could take decisions impacting the greater story due to his knowledge as, for instance, taking the decision not to follow/trust Dalinar or, at the very least, ask themselves if they should. Stuff similar to what I read in Licanius: characters asking themselves if they can trust/forgive Dalinar. It matters not if they decide to do so, I just felt the predicted absence of those thoughts is not realistic.
Granted, maybe RoW will tackle those very issues, but as I said, I am not convinced it will.
@Gepeto: one exception to the “anyone who matters” concept (maybe the only one so far): the Vorin religion has not forgiven Dalinar at all, although they condemn him for acknowledging Honor’s death, rather than his mass killings (which they encourage).
@54: Very true, but at the end, Kadash just states he will follow Dalinar even if he is a heretic. I felt this arc had been closed… Granted, maybe I read it wrong and more will come, I just felt OB closed the loop on the whole “Dalinar’s past” narrative.
I wanted more.
@54 Carl
I would go further that the Azir and Thaylens did not trust nor follow Dalinar initially due to his past. They took a whole lot of convincing, and the moment there was a sign of fall out, they all pulled out because of how they viewed the person that Dalinar was. Considering the Azir and Thaylens not allying with Dalinar could very well spell the end of the world, I consider them very important to the narrative, and their choices shaping it. It took a whole lot more convincing at the end to even get them to try and trust Dalinar again after all the revelations, and even then the coalition is still shaky.
@53 Gepeto
Who knows how Dalinar’s revelations will affect some of the characters who matter. Szeth just swore to follow him because he thought Dalinar was a man of honor worthy of that devotion. Finding out the truth can certainly cause him to question that decision. Kaladin also has looked at Dalinar as the person worth following and may have cause to reconsider (and, if not him, some of Bridge Four may have something to say about the matter). Navani knew what he was like, but not necessarily all the details (especially around Evi). Shallan didn’t know him before and may be shocked and appalled.
You may still get your external consequences.
@57: It is hard to know what narrative element Brandon will choose to further explore in RoW and which one he’ll feel needs to quietly die down. After Oathbringer, my thoughts were Brandon had closed the loop on Dalinar’s past when he had him write it in his book. If I am still hoping for Adolin to react to the revelations contained in Oathbringer, I can’t say I am holding out my breath to read an actual narrative on the matter. I expect something along the lines of Sadeas’s murder: it gets mentioned, but it is declared a non-issue because there are more important things around. Or along the lines of Shallan learning Kaladin killed Helaran: characters briefly react, but move forward without a second thought moments later.
There is also the fact Brandon has, so far, chosen not to extrapolate on external consequences, preferring to focus on the internal ones. In the case of Dalinar’s past, this narrative has always happened: it was Oathbringer. Hence, unless Brandon changes his mind and decides external consequences make a better story, I sincerely do not think we will read more on that front. This just isn’t how SA has been built in terms of narrative which is why I wished there had been more in Oathbringer in order for this story to feel more complete before it irrevocably moves forward.
This is why I think the most probable outcome in RoW is all characters decide Dalinar has changed and should not be judged on his past. They will rationalize it was Evi’s fault she died for not obeying to Dalinar. They need him and they love him deeply: they will forgive him on the spot. This is the one outcome that would allow the narrative to move forward without encumbering it with needless external conflicts.
I would personally prefer it if we were to read those conflicts because I find them interesting, but SA is just not this kind of series.